When Ross Douthat left the New York Times this summer, I was a bit disappointed. I had been a regular reader for about six years, ever since Albert Mohler introduced me to Douthat’s thought.
His move to 60 Minutes, however, has already paid off. In his recent interview with President Trump, Douthat asked the questions that matter most.
The Last Question
After deftly weaving through Trump’s self-congratulatory stock answers to policy questions, Douthat caught the president off guard with his final line of questioning: “Let’s talk about death.” Noting that Trump had survived multiple assassination attempts, he asked simply:
“What do you think happens when you die?”
Death has a way of putting everything else into perspective. As the Preacher writes, “It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting, for this is the end of all mankind, and the living will lay it to heart” (Ecclesiastes 7:2). From a worldly vantage point, elections, wars, and economics seem ultimate. These earthly concerns undoubtedly affect billions of people in significant ways.
But as soon as Douthat raised death, a taboo topic these days, the president quickly found that he has no control beyond the grave. His first answer, “Well, I hope I’m missed,” reminds me of my favorite childhood movie, The Sandlot. The Babe tells Benny, “Heroes get remembered, but legends never die.” This pursuit of immortality is innate for humans because we are made in the image of the eternal God. As the Preacher puts it, God “has put eternity into man’s heart” (Ecclesiastes 3:11).
Worldly rulers from Pharaoh in Egypt to Julius Caesar in Rome have sought to defy death by making themselves gods. In his own way, Trump seems to want the same.
Heaven or Hell?
Douthat pressed on with a firm graciousness that breaks through even the toughest exteriors: “What do you think happens to Donald Trump when you die? Not your memory, yourself.” The question of eternal judgment, heaven or hell, cut through the president’s fluff and forced him to come face to face with his mortality.
“Well, I’m a religious person, so in theory I go to heaven,” Trump answered. Asked whether he thought he was going to heaven, he replied, “I hope so. I don’t want to go to hell.” Presumably, he expects the scales of cosmic justice to tip in his favor once his good deeds are weighed against his bad.
This is Moralistic Therapeutic Deism at its finest, sprinkled with a heavy dose of Pentecostal prosperity theology.
The gospel declares otherwise.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:8–10).
The Forgiveness Test
Douthat then went even further. Recalling Erika Kirk’s moving remarks on Christian forgiveness at her husband Charlie’s memorial, along with Trump’s own response that day (“I hate my opponents and I don’t want the best for them”), he asked the president to imagine that “all you have to do to enter paradise is feel love and forgiveness for James Comey, Nancy Pelosi, anyone who you have expressed hate for over the years. Do you think you can do it?”
After waffling and making a very modern appeal to authenticity (“Well, then I wouldn’t be real, would I?”), the president admitted he couldn’t do it: “The answer is no. I want to be honest, no.” Later he added, “I do hate some of my enemies, and I always will.”
Beyond exposing the soul-eating bitterness in his own heart, the president revealed that by refusing to forgive others, he fails to recognize the forgiveness offered to him.
Douthat seized on this: “Mr. President, you have had the most charmed and remarkable life of any American in my entire lifetime, and you are telling me that before the judgment throne of God, you couldn’t find it in your heart to forgive some of your enemies? After all that’s been given to you?”
Yet the president doesn’t seem to see his life as a gift, likely because he believes he has earned every good thing that has come his way.
The Unforgiving Servant
Pride blinds the heart. A man who thinks he has earned everything is blind to how much he has been given. A man who does not receive grace is not able to give it.
In Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant, the master confronts the servant who refused to forgive a small debt:
“You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?” (Matthew 18:32–33).
Jesus is just as direct in the Sermon on the Mount:
“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matthew 6:14–15).
Teach Us to Number Our Days
I am thankful that God put Ross Douthat in front of the president, and I’m grateful that 60 Minutes put such important questions before the watching public.
May all who hear the president’s answers consider their own mortality and pray with Moses, “So teach us to number our days that we may get a heart of wisdom” (Psalm 90:12).
I’m praying that the president will recognize his pride and consider the gospel of Jesus Christ, who gave himself for sinners like him and like us all. As Paul confessed, “The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost” (1 Timothy 1:15).
That is the only path to eternal life and true immortality.
